What Do YOU Think of These Proposed PT Cruiser Car Show Classes ?

[basset hound]

Originally Posted by THISLPT

Don: We have not set anything in stone as far as the car classes for Cruisermania and are weighing several options. Thnaks for your input. I would hate to end up in a class that i am under qualified to be in. It happened to me in Vegas two years ago and i said.......heck....i don't even stack up to the others in my class.

I am totally open to going back to point system, and hope that people are honest when they submit their tally sheet. I think It may take some staff members reviewing the cars to be sure people have been on the level with their point accumulations.

Steve, I was sure that you hadn't set anything in stone. That's why I made my comments.

I certainly understand the problem of being placed in the wrong class and that could have easily been avoided if the class divisions had been announced before the entries were sent in. For some reason the show committees have been keeping the division lines between PT Cruiser classes secret. If people know what each mod that they have done is worth on a point system and know which class their Cruiser will be placed in before the show, they can't complain about it. They are the ones who decided to enter their Cruiser into that class.

As for the honesty of owners, unfortunately that has been a problem. Sometimes people list the wrong points honestly as well. As Phoenix, for example, last year I gave my Cruiser too many points. A mod that I had planned on for the show did not materialize, so it wasn't on my ride. I also know that people have new mods done just before shows or even at shows. Those need to be listed when they register their Cruisers whenever possible. If owners are required to present their points sheet when their PT Cruiser is checked into the show, it would be easy to determine if there is something on the Cruiser that wasn't added up on the points sheet.

[Matt]

Wow, this is the most responses on a thread by PT-MD in a long time.

How about free meal pass to an 'all you can eat buffet' for the winners instead of a trophy?

[PT_Sean]

Originally Posted by Dave Pgh

A Classic Edition '01 cruiser would be in the same class as an '03 Dream Cruiser, if both were exactly as delivered.

I think that happened at CRC2.

A PT with a Bassani Exhaust(which rarely gets noticed by a voter) and a couple Streamline grill flames is in the same class as a PT with a grill, hood, wheels, and some chrome add-ons.

Great point.

An owner who buys the chrome grill, spears, and gas cap from the dealer and has them installed is in a different class from the owner who bought it off the lot woth the 'chrome package'.

Again, ...

That's why I think some sort of point system, with points for EVERY upgrade(factory or not) from a base '01 is the only really fair way to group PTs into classes.

What HE said...

[KR8Z4BULEEPT]

Originally Posted by Dave Pgh

While this might work for some small shows, it still leaves some inequities in the classes.
A Classic Edition '01 cruiser would be in the same class as an '03 Dream Cruiser, if both were exactly as delivered.
A PT with a Bassani Exhaust(which rarely gets noticed by a voter) and a couple Streamline grill flames is in the same class as a PT with a grill, hood, wheels, and some chrome add-ons.
An owner who buys the chrome grill, spears, and gas cap from the dealer and has them installed is in a different class from the owner who bought it off the lot woth the 'chrome package'.

That's why I think some sort of point system, with points for EVERY upgrade(factory or not) from a base '01 is the only really fair way to group PTs into classes.

The bottomline is that there is NO perfect system, unless you have incorporated features of both the point system and $$$, which then probably is an administrative nightmare. And of course DC's offering of their own packages in recent years complicates matters, as Dave points out above with the chrome package example. Before you know it, you're going to have to request each owner supply their window sticker to prove whether the package was purchased at time of sale! I'm not a big fan of the point system, if it counts every little picky-arse mod....perhaps a system that goes primarly on $$$, but also includes a point system for major appearance mods as a check would be the best and avoid such misclassifications as follows:

A cruiser with a $2200 paint job as his/her only mod would be dumped unfairly into Supermod by $$$, but if a second criteria of the super mod class was 3 or more major appearance mods, this cruiser could be placed in the modified class instead.

As far as the "stock" issue (base vs. dreamer)......technically judges should be instructed to overlook the dreamer's extra goodies as the winner should be based on overall appearance factors (cleanliness, shine, etc) and not on its "likability factor"! in a perfect world anyway....

PS. forgot to mention that I think the $$$ cutoffs are just about right!

[2-tone]

Personally, I think the classes should be as simple as Stock..Mild..and..Wild Placing a dollar amount on mods to determine which class it goes into sounds very complicated to me. I only paid 500 dollars for the 16" smoothies on my PT..but what about someone who paid 2,000 dollars for thier 20" wheels, but niether, has any other modification. Will the PT with the more expensive wheels have to go in a different class? To me..it's the same mod..no matter how much was spent on it, and should be considered a "mild" mod because of it.

[PT-MD]

Thanx for all the comments regarding Car Classes.

We don't expect everyone (or anyone for that matter) to agree. The show sponsors for the shows that we are responsible for scoring have agreed in principle to the car classification method proposed. We are looking to refine them or replace them with something else that is complete and well thougt out.

The dollar limits on the classes are logical progression of a multiple of 4: 4 X 500 = 2000 4 X 2000 = 8000

Please keep in mind that NO SYSTEM will please everyone, and that someone will always be “on the bubble” no matter what method you use. If you have some other idea, please send a complete detailed list such as Steve (THISLPT) did. It is easy to say nay…without providing a well thought out alternative.

We use the following PARTICIPANT voting method for large shows (75 or more cars):
You must vote for THREE DIFFERENT cars in each class, or your ballot for that class will not be counted. The top 3 vote getters in each class will receive a “Top 3” trophy. There are no First, Second, and Third place awards. Smaller shows require only TWO votes per class.

Retail Pricing:
We use the prices established by Race and Street, PT Woody, and the Moss catalog.
Canadian prices should be adjusted to American dollars. We leave it up to the participants to be reasonable in selecting their class. Only in the case of VERY OBVIOUS understatements are we concerned. What is “VERY OBVIOUS”? We leave that to the Competition Oversight Committee to make a value judgement.

An EXTREME example would be this: Domeone buys a $1 raffle ticket, wins a Panel Conversion Kit and does all the installation and paint work himself (or herself for that matter). This is an obvious $6500 modification. Should the car owner claim it only cost $1 ?

Points:
Too hard to administer – you would have to classify EVERY possible mod and award “points”. How would you differentiate between a $1500 flame job and a $5000 one if you assigned “points”? What about if someone shows up…and you have not assigned points for a mod on the car ?

$2200 Paint Job:
We allow 10 percent over the stated limit. What about a $2300 paint job? You have to set limits somewhere. Also…..it is highly likely that someone who has spent $2200 for a paint job has also added other modifications. I can’t imagine that the $2200 paint job would be the only mod that has been made.

Bassett Hound:
I know you might find this hard to believe, but people are not always honest regarding the cost of mods to their cars. We have one case where a car with an obvious $4000 in mods (absolutely no question about this) that should have been classed as Super Mod, was place in the Mod class twice – including one time when the limit was $1500 instead of $2000.

We are not looking for an EXACT cost of mods, just a close approximation.

Regarding POINTS – It is not possible to create a COMPLETE LIST of points for every modification that is known, and/or has yet to be invented.

The “Competition Oversight Committee” proposal is designed to encourage proper classifications. The possibility of disqualification will limit “under-classing”.

Dream Cruisers
Dream Cruisers will be bumped up ONE class

[JOEM]

Originally Posted by Matt_kdude

How about free meal pass to an 'all you can eat buffet' for the winners instead of a trophy?

Any "dollar limits" on that buffet?

[RetroEd]

Originally Posted by JOEM

Any "dollar limits" on that buffet?

I make it a point to forget what the mods cost, for I'm a cheap old buzzard and hate
to admit the amount spent....
BE A MAN DAMM IT, you can see after 15 pages of remarks of trying this and that
your not closer in making any one happy..
So if its your show, YOU Set up the Rules...and if you want to have over worked judges
with a over detailed check list to classify and judge from for xxx number of PT, to use, Good Luck!!!

[GOLDMEMBER]

I found some Links from a Corvette Site, these guys take their very serious my stock 79 Vette never had a chance, but I had fun..



http://www.cccvette.com/carshow-inspection.htm

[basset hound]

PT-MD, I'm sure that some people are not honest about their modifications. I've seen that at many shows. My point is that your committee would not be able to come up with a just $$ value for some modifications. I'm not talking about the items that come out of the Moss Catalog. (BTW-I'd be upset if you used them as a guide because many of their prices are very high. Maybe Race & Street would be better.) Personally I don't see how your "Oversight Committee" can work if you use money as your criteria for classifying PT Cruisers. Using one with a point system would work very well. It would be easy to detect a modification not counted on a point sheet. Besides, who says that a $5,000 paint job is going to be better than one someone only spent $2,000 on? I know one PT Cruiser that just has a paint job, nothing else, but it would have to be in your Wild Class due to how much the owners spent having their PT Cruiser painted.

As for creating a point sheet for modifications, there are several that have been around for quite a while. If I recall, Sean used one for CTF 2 and I know that the PTOC has used one as well. I have also seen them used at Mustang shows and I found one somewhere on the Internet that was used by a national Volvo club. None of the points sheets that I have seen cover every possible modification. You are right, they can't. Not all modifications are worth listing. The lists that I have seen cover modifications that would make a difference at a car show. In fact, as I look at your post, you have already made a list of what you consider to be modifications and what changes don't count. You're half way to a points list. Now all you have to do is add things like major flames and minor flames, major pinstriping and minor pinstriping, etc. and decide how much each of them is worth in points. The biggest problem that we have had with the points systems at shows is that some show organizers never reveiled the class breaks. People entered the shows not knowing until they got to the show which class their PT Cruiser would be in. Even then the break down wasn't shared with entrants. People need to know before they enter what class they will be in and how it was determined.

The participant voting method is not the best choice for PT Cruiser shows. Too many of us know each other and our rides. Many of us belong to local groups who travel together to shows. Block voting by these groups is very common at shows. I've seen it misused at shows with several hundred PT Cruisers and at smaller shows. Scott even had it happen with the PTE Calendar contest for 2003 (last year's contest-not the one we just had). There are other alternatives that could be used. Perhaps the best solution would be a combination of judging styles.

No, you won't please everyone. That's a given. It would be a good idea, however, to try your best to please the most people. That way you'll have a better entry and more happy people who will come to the next one you have.